tv Velshi Ruhle MSNBC October 7, 2017 9:30am-10:00am PDT
the cost of gun violence in america is measured by the number of lives lost or altered forever. but now we can measure the harm to our financial well-being too. and president trump visits puerto rico as it continues to dig out from a devastating storm. it is also digging out from mountains of debt that is hampering the recovery efforts. what the future holds for the millions on the island. i'm stephanie ruhle. my partner, ali velshi is on assignment but we have a very, very special guest here this
week. i'm joined by andrew ross sorkin, co-anchor of "squawk box." >> thank you for having me. huge week of news. lots to talk about. >> usually we talk big business, big money but now we have to talk about big problems because it is has been a tough week. tragedy this week in las vegas is reigniting the debate on gun violence and ways we're going to stop it and that's exactly where we're going to start today. the deadliest mass shooting in modern u.s. history killed 58 people and wounded 489 others. like clockwork, the lines are being drawn again between those calling for more gun control and those who think the laws, well, they don't make us any safer. the political debate that follows these mass shootings usually focuses on the prevalence of guns or mental health of those who pull the trigger, but now some are beginning to frame violence in terms of public health crisis. one that comes with a staggering cost.
it's impossible to put a price tag on human life, but even if you want to try, there's not much u.s. government data available to tell us the economic toll of gun violence. that's in part thanks to congressional threats and lobbying efforts that keep the centers for disease control and prevention and other government agencies from doing any research on anything that could be used to advocate or promote gun control. but public health researchers are trying to fill in some of the void. a study published in the journal "health affairs" just this week drilled down into the cost of caring for the more than 100,000 people who were shot in the u.s. each year. the average emergency department charge was just over $5,000 per patient. if the patient needed to be admitted to in-patient care, the average charge was $96,000. add it up and victims of gun violence rack up a total of $2.8 billion a year in hospital charges a year. ted miller has gone further.
in collaboration with mother jones magazine, miller calculated both direct and indirect costs of gun violence. in addition to the medical care, direct costs include things like police investigations, emergency transport, mental health counseling, legal services, and incarceration. all of the things add up to $8.6 billion per year. the indirect costs include things like lost wages of victims, cost to employers, and losses in quality of life. indirect costs add up to $221 billion. all told, miller estimates that the cost of gun violence in america exceeds $229 billion every year. miller says it's still early, but his conservative preliminary estimate for the cost of the las vegas shooting is at least $600 million. the 2016 orlando nightclub shooting, only 477 days before las vegas cost around $390
million. there is still no disputing that gun violence happens way too often in this country. at this point, the only question now is how more deadly gun viol will be. >> those who survive aren't not going to go back to work and what breaks my heart is who wins? the gun industry. >> the great irony is when you look even at the stock prices of these gun companies in the days after tragedy like this, they invariably go up. sales go up, not down. and it's a very -- it's almost backwards thinking because you couldn't expect those things to happen. but people who want guns actually rush out and buy more guns so it really changes the way you think about this. even if you think about it as a human tragedy, which is very much is, to think about the economic -- to think that it costs $230 billion and that is
the true cost of the freedom effectively of having guns in this country, right, is sort of a remarkable thing. 16 million guns are sold every single year. that's up from 6 million in 2000. >> think about one of the biggest sellers, steve feinberg, remington. this is a guy who president trump was considering to have do an overhaul of the intelligence agencies. you've got big business, some of the richest guys right here in new york, gun country isn't just out there out west. the people who make all that money are right here in our backyard. >> steve feinberg owned chrysler, who was bailed out by the u.s. taxpayers. when you really start to connect the dots, it's a pretty extraordinary thing. the one thing that i've always thought could solve some of this is technology. which is to say if we could finally get some type of biometric devices, whether it be your fingerprint, rings, other things, on guns, it could change the dynamic in a meaningful way.
having said that, the nra and gun industry is trying to avoid that type of technology on this stuff. >> that's why we have to continue to focus on it. we're going to change the subject to something that republicans and democrats surprisingly seem to agree on, and it's equifax, who blew it. richard smith, the disgraced and recently departed ceo at equifax got pie in his face during this week's congressional hearings on the hill. now, he admitted being, quote, ultimately responsible for the hack that compromised the personal data of what he now admits hit 146 million americans, which is 2.5 million more than was initially disclosed. none of that went over very well with lawmakers. look at this. >> equifax deserves to be shamed in this hearing. >> it is unconscionable that equifax failed so spectacularly. >> this is unacceptable. how does this happen when so much is at stake? i don't think we can pass a law that, excuse me for saying this,
that fixes stupid. >> you need to be held accountable. >> you should have anticipated it. >> this really stinks. i mean it really smells really bad. >> what in heaven's name were y'all thinking? >> okay. it stinks, but who cares? to make matters worse, lawmakers weren't so happy to learn that equifax in the midst of all of this was awarded a $7.3 million government contract to help the irs guard against fraud. we're going to talk about that contract in a minute. but this takes me to the financial crisis. boom, we're mad at you, you did such a bad job. this guy is going to go home and be just as rich today as he was yesterday. so big deal, he was embarrassed. >> the problem is, dare i use the phrase, these guys are too big to fail and that is the problem. >> do you get paid every time we say too big to fail? >> there's a little royalty right. no, the issue here is clear, which is to say that if you're a bank, i was actually speaking with a very senior person at bank of america, they still do
business despite this. walmart does business with equifax despite this. you ask them why? we need the data. we need to know what people's ratings are. that's how they do it. so the question is how do you hold them accountable? >> regulation. and we're currently living with an administration that wants to deregulate. you can have every lawmaker up there say this should be illegal, except the not. the fact he blamed a tech guy -- >> then the question becomes what's the lie ability, right? we don't know. just because you have my data doesn't mean we know what the economic loss is to me. >> so what am i going to sue you for. >> and it may be this data is used five years from now and that's when the problem emerges. so what kind of laws should we put in place, what kind of fines? and the other question is, and i have no sympathy for equifax, at some level you have to also recognize that they are to some degree a victim of a hacking attack. the question is did they have a
lock on their door? they did. was it big enough? clearly not. so it's a very complicated issue. i imagine we'll see so much more of this. >> fine, complicated, but i want to go back to this. the irs in the midst of all of it, boom, here's a contract, $7.3 million. look at what lawmakers said about that. >> i won't ask for a show of hands in the room, but i don't know who would want to say we should buy fraud protection from the people that were just hacked and dumped 145 million american records. >> you realize to many americans right now that looks like we're giving lindsay lohan the keys to the minibar. >> like that's funny, but is it? >> no. >> lindsay lohan and a minibar. wow. meanwhile, president trump, he is pushing for the biggest tax cuts ever, but the republican-backed plan is facing fire from within the republican party. senator rand paul of kentucky tweeted this. quote, this is a gop tax plan?
possibly 30% of middle class gets a tax hike. i hope the final details are better than this. and he includes a link to a report by the tax policy center. its analysis of the $2.4 trillion in proposed cuts shows 80% of the benefits are going to the top 1% of earners. you saw bob corker of tennessee said unless this thing reduces deficits, he's not going to support it. how does this thing help the trump voter? >> i don't know anybody who looks at this plan on a long-term basis and thinks that it is somehow deficit neutral. it costs money. so the question is, you said how does it help the trump voter? or people in middle america? it helps around the margins. the problem is it helps a lot more not on the margins but at the very top morniargin. >> you sit among people every day that seem to like this plan. what is the argument aside from, man, it works for me and then they look the other way. >> i think it takes a little bit
of cognitive dissidence to believe this plan is real and will actually help everybody. there are free marketeers who believe there's a benefit to this. i don't think in reality -- i think they know. look, i think there's a bet. their bet is dynamic scoring, which i don't necessarily agree with, but that's the bet. the bet is that somehow we're not doing the math properly. >> i've got to talk about mick mulvaney because we hear from mick mulvaney year after year. you remember, a republican who had such issues with the growing deficit and now he's changing his tune. >> very much so. >> listen to this. >> with you need to have new deficits because of that. we need to have the growth, chris. if we simply look at this as being deficit neutral, you're never going to get the type of tax reform and tax reductions that you need to get to sustain 3% economic growth. >> mick mulvaney, who co-founded the house freedom caucus. >> you have to turn a blind eye to math, to basic math to get to
that answer. >> turning a blind eye to math. welcome to america. that's amazing, andrew. we're going to take a break. coming up, draining the swamp in washington. why the administration is having such a hard time keeping that one campaign promise. and puerto rico after the storm. the president complains that relief could throw the u.s. budget out of whack. hinting at another storm brewing over the island's massive debt. we're going to have that next. it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same.
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welcome back. two weeks after hurricane maria, puerto rico's infrastructure is in shambles with communications on much of the island still down. this week president trump flew in to show his support and promise for more relief efforts, but he also stoked controversy because that's what he does, around puerto rico's debt problems, a storm that was brewing long before maria hit. hurricane maria wiped out 80% of
puerto rico's electric grid, leaving 3.4 million residents without food, electricity or fresh water. five days after the storm hit, president trump took to twitter to address the situation. puerto rico, which was already suffering from broken infrastructure and massive debt, is in deep trouble. he went on to criticize how much puerto rico is in debt. quote, with billions of dollars owed to wall street and the banks, which sadly must be dealt with. in the midst of this catastrophic event with much of the country still without drinking water and electricity, a war of words erupted between trump and the mayor of puerto rico's capital. last week san juan mayor carmen yulin cruz, pleaded for more help. >> if anybody out there is listening to us, we are dying and you are killing us with the inefficiency and the bureaucracy.
so mr. trump, i beg you to take charge and save lives. after all, that is one of the founding principles of the united states of north america. >> president trump fired back at the mayor on twitter, suggesting democrats were telling her to be nasty to trump. he followed up by blaming cruz for showing poor leadership. and others in puerto rico for wanting everything to be done for them when it should be a community effort. this week president trump traveled to puerto rico and came face to face with mayor cruz. he also met with local officials, frequently praising his administration's response
while reflecting on the island's recovery. >> now, i hate to tell you, puerto rico, but you've thrown our budget a little out of whack, because we've spent a lot of money on puerto rico, and that's fine. we've saved a lot of lives. >> after surveying damaged areas in the capital and distributing supplies to hurricane victims, president trump again addressed the nation's $72 billion of debt. >> they owe a lot of money for your friends on wall street, and we're going to have to wipe that out. that's going to have be -- you can say good-bye to that. i don't know if it's goldman sachs, but whoever it is, you can wave good-bye to that. >> and of course mick mulvaney had to talk that back because puerto ricans are dancing in the street going, what? our debt is wiped out? it's not wiped out. >> people don't appreciate who owns the debt. oftentimes you'll hear headlines and say this billionaire or hedge fund owns the debt and that's true. but if you really understand who owns the debt underneath that. seth carmen is compared to warren buffett owns about a
billion dollars of this debt but he ownsendowments of universities and pension plans. there's the humanitarian side of who owns those bonds, which is basically all of us. >> those money managers are going to get their fees, win, lose or draw. >> yes. >> but when those investments are bad investments, we suffer because we're the end investor. >> there was a problem with that debt before what happened to puerto rico. >> a big problem. >> a big problem in terms of economics. but now the economics will be that much harder. >> for the president to say you've thrown our budget out of whack, that statement is whack. >> well, to throw those towels out as if they were t-shirts at a knicks game. i'm not commenting. >> he's not commenting. all right then. they had huge, huge debts, much like places like the state of illinois. so puerto rico is in trouble, it remains in trouble. we've got to take a close look at those numbers and get them right. and remember, those are u.s.
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welcome back. president trump said he was going to drain the swamp in washington, but on the heels of health and human services secretary tom price's resignation last week, this week we learned the treasury secretary's chief of staff eli miller thought it would be okay to jet down to florida with a hedge fund billionaire on his private jet. nelson peltz who has donated big mostly to republican candidates, the fact that he is lending jets to a trump administration
official is raising eyebrows. it's also triggered a review by the inspector general. a separate inquiry into his boss, mnuchin, over seven flights he took on a military aircraft that cost $800,000 to taxpayers found that he broke no laws. now, there may be no breaking of laws, but whether it's elaine chao, zinke, mnuchin, rick perry, the fact that there are military flights, private flights, isn't this the opposite of what trump ran on? >> we have normalized the culture of graft. that's what's happening. that's what's happened here. and it's so -- given that the pledge was to drain the swamp and given his -- how fiscally conservative he has argued he wants to be, it is all the more remarkable to watch these officials -- >> but that's the perversion of it all. remember the $16 muffin, criticizing nancy pelosi. how come all of that is wiemd o -- wiped out? >> i wonder whether it is wiped out. i wonder whether president trump watches all of this in
frustration and i think he must. >> he must? >> we'll see whether he actually says anything to these people and whether the behavior changes. >> but a week ago, you would have thought price was the outlier. but if it's trump who is setting the standard or if his whole posse is going, well, if you behave this way, so do i, these numbers pale in comparison to how much money we spend with trump going down to mar-a-lago. >> yeah. we have to move on to the consumer financial protection bureau issuing much-anticipated new rules this week on payday loans. despite attempts to block them by former trump campaign manager corey lewandowski and other lobbyists, they now say any new payday loan over $500 requires a full payment test. that means lenders have to figure out up front if a consumer can afford to actually repay the loan without borrowing more money to do so. the new rule is aimed to prevent any payday lenders from exploiting americans desperate for financial help. what's your take on this?
>> on this issue, it's a good thing. i know there's an argument against it that somehow it will limit credit to people who need it most at their worst moments but you need to balance it and you need this. look, it's better that they did it than they didn't. >> sorry, corey lewandowski. all right, the last one, cfpb's biggest champion, elizabeth warren, is on a roll taking a swing at the wells fargo ceo on capitol hill. listen. >> you enabled this bank account scam, you got rich off it and then you tried to cover it up. at best you are incompetent. at worst you were complicit. either way, you should be fired. >> and the gloves come off. >> do you agree with her? >> i think it's -- he's in a tough position. i'm not going to go that far, but clearly bad mistakes have been made there. a lot. >> bad mistakes. you remember wells fargo? we thought they were like -- >> back in the day.
>> that does it for us here on "velshi & ruhle." a big thank you to andrew ross sorkin. you can see him monday through friday on "squawk box" and then join me here. oh, you brought butch. yeah! (butch growls at man) he's looking at me right now, isn't he? yup. (butch barks at man) butch is like an old soul that just hates my guts. (laughs) (vo) you can never have too many faithful companions. introducing the all-new crosstrek. love is out there. find it in a subaru crosstrek.
now that we have your attention... capri sun has four updated drinks. now with only the good stuff. do you know how to use those? nope. get those kids some new capri sun! good day to all of you. i'm alex witt here in new york. it's 1:00 in the east and 10:00 a.m. out west. some scary moments in london. a car rams into pedestrians fueling fears in this times of terror. he's at it again, president trump reaching out to the most powerful democrat on capitol hill, so what does he want? >> the issue is that tillerson, everyone in d.c. essentially sees him as a lame duck secretary of state. >> next to go, is it secretary of state rex tillerson? reports of a white house in chaos flourish. growing stronger, hurricane nate bears down on the gulf coast.